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ODP/RN Anaesthetists

Discussion in 'Anaesthetics' started by correction_centre, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. correction_centre

    correction_centre New Member

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    Hi,
    I posted this in the doctors mess and got zero response, was hoping you guys could do better!!:

    Over in the states RN's actually can qualify to be and actually work as anaesthetists.

    In this country, with the reduction in junior doctors hours, and the gradual evolution of the ODP role, more and more tasks are being passed to the ODP. Is it on the cards for the same thing to happen in this country? I can imagine some medics being quite opposed to this seeing as they've spent 10 years training before they've got their first senior reg post - but it makes sense doesn't it?

    e.g. a group of ODP anaesthetists working under the supervision of a consultant doing the more minor proceedures requiring light anaesthetics (e.g. knee arthroscopy, teeth pulling etc).

    What do you reckon?
     
  2. correction_centre

    correction_centre New Member

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    Absolutely.
    By the way, I decided to go for ODP rather than nurse training (even though you advised to do it the otherway round!) and I've got an offer to start in September at Huddersfield - I'm frantically trying to sort out my finances before the course starts! I'm actually quite nervous and excited about the whole thing and it's still 6 months away!
     
  3. correction_centre

    correction_centre New Member

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    b.t.w. - is that your picture on the left?
     
  4. nursesteve

    nursesteve New Member

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    blimey weegie do you wanna be a nurse, an ODP, a Dr or what???!!! LOL LOL LOL
     
  5. monkey boy

    monkey boy New Member

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    looks more like kylie to me. hmm kylie.... [in best homer simpson voice ;) ]
     
  6. correction_centre

    correction_centre New Member

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    Yeah I'm quite interested too. I mean I notice that you've applied for some 6 year courses - you must want to do med really really badly. Can you not see a way forwards with your present career. I mean you're in a position to push the cause and blaze the trail so-to-speak. Can you not officially become 1st assistant to the surgeon cos I'm sure people have talked about this before.
    Cheers.
     
  7. lucyfrombristol

    lucyfrombristol New Member

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    As a point of interest, I am currently involved in the writing of a course to train a new role known as Anaesthesia Practitioners. This course which is being commissioned jointly by the NHSU and Royal College of Anaesthetists is designed to train non-medical personnel to be part of the Anaesthetic team. This new role is seen to be important in pioneering the shift of work, traditionally done only by doctors, to new, non-medically trained grades of staff.

    After qualification an Anaesthesia Practitioner will be able to give anaesthesia and monitor patients under supervision. It is envisaged that applicants to the course will come from both current healthcare workers (theatre nurses, ODPs etc.) and life science graduates.

    The course is still very much in development but it should be up and running in a number of sites around the country within the next 6 months, so watch this space. Let me know if you'd like any more info.
     
  8. alilel

    alilel New Member

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    (she changed it)
     
  9. nursesteve

    nursesteve New Member

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    cast you down? what are you on about? lol
     
    #9 nursesteve, Apr 6, 2005
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2005
  10. correction_centre

    correction_centre New Member

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    That sounds exactly what I was refering to inmy initial post. Any info you could supply regarding the post, duration, funding, requirements for applicants etc etc would be very much appreciated. If you've got anything to email my addy is <deleted now>. Cheers
    Chris
     
    #10 correction_centre, Apr 6, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2005
  11. lucyfrombristol

    lucyfrombristol New Member

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    Have just sent you an email Chris.
     
  12. correction_centre

    correction_centre New Member

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    Rec'd with thanks Lucy.
     
  13. lucyfrombristol

    lucyfrombristol New Member

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    No problem.

    For anyone else that is interested there is quite a lot of info on the Royal College of Anaesthetists website: http://www.rcoa.ac.uk/index.asp?PageID=547

    Also, more general roles known at the moment as Medical or Surgical Care Practitioners are also under development.
     
  14. DiamondGeezer

    DiamondGeezer New Member

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    Nurse anaesthetists

    Hi there,

    I am British and am in the USA for 3 years doing a degree at the moment. You are right about the Nurse anaesthetists in the US. Here in order for a nurse to train as one, they have to have an RN B.Sc degree, 2 years critical care experience post grad, pass a tough entry exam called "the GRE" and do a Masters degree. Most last 2.5 years. At the end they practice under the supervision of an "attending physician" equivalent to a consultant. They are REALLY well trained and the course they do is very thorough. I think it is a great idea for the UK and will be interested to see what the training involves.

    I know here they do everything..put lines in, induce, maintain, reverse anaesthesia, critical care, ICU, pain clinics etc etc....
    There is an American society or association of Nurse anaesthetists i'm sure you can find on the net.

    Cheers,
    DiamondGeezer
     
  15. bumpy

    bumpy New Member

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    hi everyone....just reading the thread and would like to share some of my thoughts......when I started my nurse training, I researched all the career options that would present itself post qualifying with the intention of finding the route that was most financially rewarding and came upon nurse anaesthesia in the US...mind u there are nurse anaesthesists in other European countries like France, Sweden and Germany but they aren't particularly paid very well....I immediately started in intensive care on graduating and started reading for my NCLEX as no way was I gonna stay here with the promise of $$$$$ in sight.....I even got the offer of starting the Masters program and was getting ready to emigrate (again)....but got this offer to start medicine as well......so what do I do? I take the option of medicine as in the long run anaesthesiologists make much more dosh....

    Anyway, even though there is the intention to introduce aneasthetic practitioners in the UK, I'm pretty sure the level of responsibility would not be on par to the US practitioners, plus the pay is pathetic in comparison....don't quote me on this but chinese whispers are that the course will be at least 4 years and there will be a bursary of about £25,000pa then roughly £30,000pa afterwards (as I said this may be a big big lie)....which in comparison, US practitioners get in excess of $100,000pa.

    Patients also prefer nurses to administer anaesthesia as they are more caring and understanding......I'm all for introducing anaesthetic practitioners here as I'm sure I wasn't the only one attracted to the salary and benefits offerred in the US......I was told that even though the course is academically challenging it is similar to a doctor's residency so if some of u are considering doing medicine then hard work shouldn't be a deterrent......

    OK...so much for my ramblings........take care y'all and wish me luck on starting this foolhardy mission in becoming an anaesthesiologist/ anaesthetist (lol)
     
  16. andy2

    andy2 New Member

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    how much rubbish in one thread!!?

    1)"patients prefer nurses as anaesthetists as they are more caring"- no evidence for this, most anaesthetists are experts at putting patients at ease. Most patients would prefer to be anaesthetised by someone who know's what they're doing and who can handle potential complications. There is some evidence from the US of worse outcomes with CRNAs (nurse anaesthetists).
    2) length of time to qualify - almost as long as to create an SHO in anaesthetics with the same level of independance (i.e local supervision on ASA 1 and 2 cases) -there is no economic or speed benefit to training non-medical anaesthetists.
    3) I'm sorry some people no longer want to be nurses, if you want to be a doctor then train like everybody else - extended nursing roles should not be seen as an alternative route for those who tried but failed to get into med school.

    I'm not anti-nurse/ODP, there are plenty of excellent members of these professions around and they do a great job. I trained as a doctor, I don't think I should be able to do other people's jobs with abbreviated training, If I wanted to be a nurse I'd go to nursing college. What next - lets train air stewardesses to do the straightforward bits of flying a plane? Let architects do the job of structural engineering? It may not be PC, but in the end there is a reason why anaesthesia evolved from a task performed by the passing medical student, spare scrub nurse or hospital plumber into a medical speciality.
     
    #16 andy2, Apr 28, 2005
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2005
  17. lucyfrombristol

    lucyfrombristol New Member

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    I'm not sure where you have obtained some of your information andy2, but some of it is incorrect.

    One of the main reasons for developing this new role in the UK is the difficulty with filling posts in Anaesthesia - most hospitals currently have significant numbers of vacancies. It is not much good recruiting all of these new trainees from the existing workforce as everyone know there is already a shortage of nurses etc. This would just be robbing Peter to pay Paul. The Royal College of Anaesthetists (RCoA) is fully supportive of the programme and will quality assure all training posts, as it does it's medical training posts.

    The Anaesthesia Practitioner (AP) programme aims to train both existing health professionals and graduates with a relevant Science degree. The length of time to qualify will only be 27 months. After this (if the trainee has successfully completed the assessments set by the RCoA) the AP will be able to give anaesthetics and monitor patients under the supervision of a Consultant Anaesthetist (2 APs to every Consultant). They will not undertake complex cases, obstetrics, paeds etc.

    I understand why medically qualified professionals might feel threatened and undermined, or be cynical about the ability of non-medical staff to carry out aspects of their job. You say that -
    I'm sure that if you look hard enough you can find this evidence, but I cannot believe that the RCoA, who did extensive research on this topic, would continue to encourage and support such a training programme if this evidence was in any way conclusive.

    If anyone is interested in the facts about this programme, please see this website: http://www.rcoa.ac.uk/index.asp?PageID=547
     
  18. andy2

    andy2 New Member

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    1) Problems filling posts - the solution would be to train more doctors and encourage them into anaesthetics. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is exactly what is going to happen, most of these non-medical anaesthetists are going to come from existing health care professionals (ODPs, theatre nurses, ICU nurses etc..) as they have he experience and will want to extend their existing role. I think few people will train for this as a primary profession.

    2) The support of the royal college of anaesthetists - the college was told by the government either you support this programme or we will impose it without your input. Given the choice they decided that it was better to be involved and so be able to exert some control over the situation. This should not be interpreted as enthusiastic support for this idea and it is certainly far from popular amongst anaesthetists on the ground.

    3) length of time to train - 2.5 years, on top of a 3-4 year primary degree is 5.5-6.5 years. It takes five years to train a Dr, one year pre-reg and then you can start as an anaesthetic SHO who works under supervision, will rapidly be not restricted to straightforward cases, able to cover obstetrics, ICU and so forth. These non-medical anaesthetists will also not be cheaper than equivalent medical staff.

    This is not about feeling threatened or cynical, this is about what is right for patients, the development of future medical anaesthetists and a resistance to government inspired attempts to 'break up' the monopoly doctors have over medicine. I've done some anaesthetics during my training, large portions of it aren't tricky and I don't doubt that many people could perform a basic anaesthetic - but even easy anaesthetics can go wrong. The anaesthetists I've trained with have been doctors first and anaesthetists second, this foundation in medical training is vital.
    I see you have an offer for medical school -well done, enjoy your training. Once you've finished your training come back and tell us if you still think those without the benefit of that training can do our jobs.

    To end a quote from Robert Boyle -an early pioneer of anaesthesia of Boyle's machine fame " any fool can give an anaesthetic..............and that scares me"
     
  19. lucyfrombristol

    lucyfrombristol New Member

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    As someone working closely with the Royal College of Anaesthetists and other Anaesthetists 'on the ground' to develop the national curriculum for the Anaesthetisia Practitioner programme I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you on your 2nd point. I accept that this sort of new role will not be welcomed by one and all, but the majority of forward thinking and open-minded Consultant Anaesthetists, including the immediate past president of the Royal College, are very supportive and certainly haven't been forced into that position. The impetus for the development of this role did not as you suggest come from the government, but from NHS trusts.

    One of the most enthusiastic, inspirational and supportive doctors I have worked with is a Consultant Anaesthetist and Senior Lecturer in Anaesthesia. He is also the project lead for this curriculum development. I think that he would be very disheartened by this attitude displayed by a junior doctor such as yourself.
     
  20. andy2

    andy2 New Member

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    with the greatest of respect your close involvement in this programme will have brought you into close contact with the most enthusiastic proponents - the feeling amoungst anaesthetists without a personal or vested interest is generally sceptical to totally opposed.
     

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