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How much has the change in UKCAT affected your average?

Discussion in 'UKCAT' started by Jhesam, Dec 21, 2007.

?

How much did the removal of AR affect your UKCAT average?

  1. Up >40

    8.0%
  2. Up >30

    10.3%
  3. Up >20

    13.8%
  4. Up Up>10

    13.8%
  5. Up <10

    9.2%
  6. Down <10

    14.9%
  7. Down >10

    10.3%
  8. Down >20

    4.6%
  9. Down >30

    4.6%
  10. Down >40

    10.3%
  1. Jhesam

    Jhesam New Member

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    As I mentioned the other day, I thought I'd try a poll out to see how much the over large cockup by Pearson Vue has affected peoples UKCAT averages pointswise.

    Cheers!
     
  2. Singh.Simran

    Singh.Simran New Member

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    Interesting all the complaints seem to be from people who lost out and fairly largely, not a lot of people still ok still debating in the threads.

    It would appear thus far that there is minimal overall change in terms of whether we all shifted up or down as a group. Not a lot of votes though, so lets see how it pans out.

    For the record im down about 22 ish to 80something.
     
  3. Argh!

    Argh! New Member

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    I must confess, I lost out largely (just over 40 points down), I guess I am angry because its just an inequitable system. I mean, its unfair on the one hand that people have artificially high scores that pull their average up. But it is just unfair that people who have fairly and squarely NOT done well in that section have it dropped and see their average raised. Either way, the UKCAT is not a fair representation of their skills. So frankly, if they have cocked it up this much, they should just scrap the whole thing.
     
  4. Singh.Simran

    Singh.Simran New Member

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    Argh; you keep saying you did it through practice, but two things:

    1. You cant prove it, nor are you a reliable indicator- you have a vested interest in saying it's your own skill.

    2. You are one; the fairness must be judged by the whole and apparantly on the whole this part was so flawed as to be worthy of exclusion

    3. Are you saying the rest of us didnt practice?

    The ukcat consortium know far more about the reasons for the mark distribution than you i'm afraid.

    The real reason this change is unfair is because it caused some people, mainly graduates, to ruin their choices. Anything else is people just caring about their own scores.
     
  5. Argh!

    Argh! New Member

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    I completely agree, but are you arguing that it is completely fair to candidate A who say got the UKCAT scores AR: 700, QR: 700, VR: 700, DR: 540 to have their average score lowered whilst candidate B, with the same original mark overall but with the distribution AR: 540, QR: 700, VR: 700, DR: 700, sees their average rise when Pearson VUE has never stated that some people were markedly BELOW their actual skill level. In graduate terms, that might mean that A loses out on an interview, whilst B gets one. Fair? I think not.
     
  6. Dr Noodle

    Dr Noodle New Member

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    You seem to have contradicted yourself in one post. You say it's unfair for some to have 'artificially' high average scores with the AR and then you say it's unfair that those who 'fairly and squarely' didn't do well have their averages raised. I've said this so many times, the mere fact that you could practise for it (if this indeed is why you scored well) makes the test defunct. As far as I can see I'm the only one who didn't do well in it and said I didn't practise. As Simran says how do you know you were the only one who practised? In fact I've talked to someone on this forum who, like me, randomly guessed the answers yet they got 900...

    Why are you so upset? You still have a very good average which is well above mine.
     
  7. smilingbeinghappy

    smilingbeinghappy New Member

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    I just think it's an overall waste of time and money... I've done it twice now, and I did better last year than I did this year, what's that all about?
    As for my results, VR - 700, QR - 730, AR - 630, DA - 630... It made a difference on my average, taking it from 672.5 to 686.7... But not a huge one like the figures you're playing with here.
    Personally seeing as the unis have known since they got our applications I think the only real problem is that pearson didn't tell us until now.
     
  8. Dr Noodle

    Dr Noodle New Member

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    Thing is one person here said that they were told that they were rejected because they were under the cut-off in one section-AR. Either Imperial decided to use it anyway or they didn't actually know and PV lied.
     
  9. Giggy

    Giggy New Member

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    My marks were; 780, 660, 750, 790. I lost the 750 so my average went from 745 down to 743. A decrease in 2 isn't a large amount and for me personally it hopefully won't change things too much. (neverous look) Some people on the other hand have been affected badly because of it.

    That said if I had lost one of my 790 or 780 scores because of this I would have been upset so I can see where some people are coming from on this.
     
  10. Argh!

    Argh! New Member

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    I have indeed contradicted myself, because my point is BOTH situations are unfair and UKCAT has chosen one unfair option over another. In my mind, they should have either scrapped the entire test, or left people's scores as is but told the universities the situation. The universities could therefore judge for themselves whether or they thought your UKCAT score was fair or not. In reality, I believe they sent people's scores without the AR, so universities had no idea.

    The simple fact is, ALL the UKCAT sections could be practised for- I guarantee you anyone and everyone could improve their score. That is why graduates seem to have done on the whole better than undergraduates- because they have realised from jobs etc that the more psychometric tests you do, the better you get. I mean- the maths section, you need to learn certain calculations and when you know what to put into your calculator, you are going to do a lot better than before you knew which figures to put in. The idea that the UKCAT is "unpracticable" (I don't think that is a word, but run with me) is a complete fallacy. Its un-revisable because it doesn't particularly rely on existing knowledge, like the GAMSAT, but it is definitely practicable for.

    I know my score is still good but it still doesn't change the fact I think what they have done is *not* fair to the candidates and I think its outrageous that they have told us months later, when they have known about the problem for ages. I am unfunnily poor at the moment and I resent paying £75 for a test which has been cocked up to this extent.
     
  11. georgiegirl

    georgiegirl New Member

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    It amazes me that you would want them to scrap a test you have done so fantastically well in, particularly since you claim to have worked hard to prepare. I get the impression your main problem is that your ego is dented by the idea that your score of 900 in AR wasn't actually reliable. A lot of people on these threads seem to have been getting off on their 900 scores in AR, claiming it's a test of 'innate intelligence' etc. Turns out now that these people just lucked out with a duff test, and it's a bit of a blow to the inflated self esteem!!

    I also practised a lot for the AR section and feel this helped. I got 670, but my test was rock hard, I couldn't believe people were getting 900. I don't consider myself particularly intellectually challenged either.

    Those who've really lost out, are, as Simran says, graduates who made UCAS choices based on false assumptions regarding their UKCAT scores and now won't make the cut. These people deserve massive sympathy.

    My own average has gone from a less than stellar 640 to an even more unremarkable 630. And no doubt Pearson have f***ed up and care should be taken that it won't happen again.

    But Argh! your score is still excellent and your outrage is a bit self indulgent IMO!!! Please get over yourself, with your average your £75 still looks like money well spent. Good luck, though you need it less than most given your UKCAT score;)
     
  12. Singh.Simran

    Singh.Simran New Member

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    Haha.

    Probably an accurate psychoanalysis there.

    Lets use a comparison - i also got 900 in AR, and could by rights be outraged, but if we for a moment take the huge assumption that this is a vaguely good indicator of intelligence, i still got over 800 and am therefore very intelligent by the other metrics.

    Now if the other 3 metrics for any given person were considerably less, wouldnt that indicator of intelligence be more reliable at that level? Wouldn't the 900 be counted as an anomalous result in any proper scientific investigation, and either discounted or retested?

    The suggestion that the 900 is truer than the 6, 7, or 800 any person may have in the range of their other 3 is, as george says, self-indulgent and illogical. The famous medics sense of reason is clouded by vested interest in being a clever person.
     
  13. Argh!

    Argh! New Member

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    I don't think I have to have a low score to feel the system is unfair! I just find it ironic that in a field concerned with equity, they are allowing such an inequitable system to decide something quite important. I also resent the fact (and its not just Pearson Vue, I felt this about all my university deadlines where I slaved to meet them and then tutors couldn't be bothered to mark them on time), that we as students/applicants are forced to jump through hoops and toe the line, but the universities/pearson can do whatever they want and we are supposed to just sit there and take it.

    Put it this way, if you had bought a stereo that played CDs, tapes and MP3s and had a radio and you paid £75 for it and the CD player was broken, even if the rest of the functions were still great, you'd be pissed off and want some money back.
     
  14. Bakkur

    Bakkur New Member

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    My UKCAT average was 675, and is now 730. I found the abstract reasoning test ridiculously hard, and could see no rhyme or reason to it at all. I was frankly pleasantly surprised with a score of 510.
    So yeah, it's been beneficial to me; it seems unlikely the universities knew early enough for it to affect the process all that much though.
    By the by, what happened to Section 5, the silly personality test? Was that ever going to be relevant, or was it just a trial? It was a big waste of space, I know that, and I'd be interested to know what they were actually planning to do with it.
     
  15. Dr Noodle

    Dr Noodle New Member

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    I was wondering too. I didn't think that sort of thing could be tested like that. I mean one of the questions had something to do with being spiteful. Even a naturally spiteful person isn't going to say they are.

    Bakkur, what's that sparkly stuff in your avatar?
     
  16. Argh!

    Argh! New Member

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    I do remember seeing an exemplar question for the non-cognitive bit which went:

    "I would lie to get what I wanted".

    How many people would seriously select "strongly agree" to that statement? Its like saying "Ignore my UCAS statement, I'm lying in it".
     
  17. georgiegirl

    georgiegirl New Member

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    Argh! - according to your reasoning, the person whom I've quoted above has been given an 'unfair' advantage by the AR section being knocked out.

    You, on the other hand, you believe have been unfairly disadvantaged.

    Now I suspect that the reality is that Bakkur, who is clearly pretty smart to get an overall average of 675 with a 510 score in AR, got a very difficult AR section, whereas you got an incredibly easy one. You want to believe that it's just your natural intelligence and hard work that got you 900 but the overall picture, not least from the company, suggests this is unlikely to be the case.

    Seems to me that it's likely fairer on both you and Bakkur to knock out AR altogether. Your argument that the whole UKCAT should be scrapped because it turns out you're not a genius after all is a bit unhelpful. What are the universities who have elected to use it to do, if it's scrapped? They can't suspend medical admissions for a whole year, they need students and the country needs doctors.

    The only thing that can be done is scrap the failed section and continue with the rest of the data. There are winners and losers in this situation (I happen to be a loser) but it's the only pragmatic approach to the problem. Of course it's not fair.

    And of course you are entitled to complain about the administration of the UKCAT even though you scored highly. But I think you should think very carefully about how your huffing and puffing about it comes across to people who have far bigger problems as a consequence of this f*** up than a blow to the ego and feeling like they deserve a refund of a quarter of £75. Some people have made four dud choices this year and are staring reapplying for 2009 in the face. Nice.

    Remember tact is a pretty important quality for a good doctor.
     
  18. Argh!

    Argh! New Member

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    Did you have the Passing the UKCAT and BMAT book? Because most people I know did, and one of my close friends, who is fiercely intelligent, amazing grades in everything did too. She tried the model tests from the book and got nearly full marks first time round in all the sections apart from the example AR one in which she did not get a single question right. That is because she hadn't yet learnt the rules and practised how to do that test.

    Now taking out my score entirely, and I don't mean to be mean to Bakkur here, but in the Pearson Vue answer, was there EVER any mention of them putting out tests of vastly varying difficulty? Or marking people unfairly harshly? No, the problem was marking people's tests that may have got questions wrong unfairly highly. So people may have felt they were unlucky in their choice of AR questions, but there is no evidence to show that their tests were unfairly hard. I personally didn't do as well in the DA as I expected, I found the questions much harder than the practice ones had ever been. But que sera sera, and I'm not going to claim I was marked badly on that.

    If you consider that for almost every other course in the country, they don't use special aptitude tests, and some universities for medicine still don't bother (like Southampton GEP) and other ones only consider the UKCAT as an absolute tie-breaker, it seems that they really could have coped just this one year without the UKCAT when it seems to have been messed up so badly. I think it is pretty ridiculously anyway that for graduates, when you have slaved away to get GCSEs, A-levels, a good degree, possible masters/PhDs, years of experience in the workplace etc that you can be refused an interview everywhere you have applied on the basis of your ability to decode messages, do rapid maths and match shapes. And yet for graduates, they give the UKCAT the most power in deciding people's fates.

    I wonder what everyone would have thought if my score had dropped from 610 to 570. Would the points I made be valid then?
     
  19. Dr Noodle

    Dr Noodle New Member

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    No they wouldn't.

    The UKCAT consortium doesn't endorse any study materials so you can't correlate the two. Only the BMAT does.

    It surely does sound like your ego has been bruised.
     
  20. nicnac84

    nicnac84 New Member

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    Wo ho ho Georgie girl!!!

    Tact is one of the important qualities of a doctor? I can't believe you'd have the cheek to state that at the end of a string of personal attacks at Argh! You did actually say, and I quote; "get over yourself".

    Honestly read back over your last few posts mate, there's no tact within a mile of them. Looks like you've got a bee in your bonnet cos Argh has a better UKCAT score.Argh! is still entitled to his/her opinions even if it does make the rest of us feel bad.

    By the way everyone, if you read the response from UKCAT posted on another thread, it does state that the AR section HASN'T been scrapped... its been left up to the discresion of the universities as to whether they use this data. Personally, I think most of them still are using the whole four sections to select their students. Well the universities I've applied to anyway.
     

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